dealer error

[mom4jessi]

Player A says "all in" Player B asks the dealer "how much" dealer says "51K" player B says "ok i'll call" Player A wins the hand.  But his chip count is not 51k...it is  71k.  Does Player B have to pay the 71k? 

[paulferd]

Unfortunately there's no specific rule to address this question, but I think that best interest of the game is your best friend in this situation. I find it hard to believe that Player A was not aware that he had 20k more that the dealer announced when the count was asked for. Since he did not speak up when he had a chance, it is very possible he was trying to take advantage of the dealer error.

I think player B puts 51k into the pot. Player A should be warned to pay attention when involved in a hand. My dealer and I will have a little conversation later about being far more conscientious when counting down chips. It is doubtful Player A will make this mistake again. 

I think this is the same decision also if say a player has a lot of chips (multiple stack of 20) but somehow has some larger denomination chips in a dirty stack in the back. If when the count was done everyone missed those chips, but now he argues that he should be paid the full amount when they are discovered.

Anyone have other thoughts?
Paul

[Stuart Murray]

Yeh I agree with Paul

The player should not stand to gain from the mistake as they have a duty of care to ensure the dealer has correctly counted their stack.  I have seen it here and on tele on multiple occasions and I have also corrected dealer errors on occasion  (I have even seen it on poker after dark for example and these are some of the best poker dealers around).  It is a players duty to point out mistakes before further action occurs. I have made errors when dealing also - they are easy to make when you have been dealing for some time (for example i tried to award a pot to pocket eights about two months ago when there was a four colour broadway straight on the board!)  I don't necessarily agree that we need to talk to dealers unless they are making mistakes too often.

The player only gets 51k and I agree with the rest of Paul's statement about messy stacks.  I am always affirming the duty of care players have to the rest of the table and the dealer and if they fail to protect themselves I will usually be less sympathetic.

Regards
Stuart

[chet]

2 more cents worth guys.  I agree with both Paul and Stuart regarding the amount to be paid being 51K and not 71K.  There are errors on both players and the dealer.  Player B has some responsibility, albeit a minimal part.  He/she should have required the player to count down the stacks. 

Had he/she done so, it would have eliminated the "dirty stack" problem. 

By the way, TDA Rule #37 covers this, I quote, "Players must keep their higher denomination chips visible and indentifiable at all times.

Hope this helps!

[DCJ001]

In my opinion, the person who called the bet and who asked for the chip count has a greater responsibility to verify the amount to call than the person who made the bet. The person who made the bet can remain silent, the dealer should give an accurate chip count, but the person calling the bet should be counting along with the dealer to verify the amount.

The reason that I believe that the caller of the bet ultimately has the responsibility is because he's putting his chips into the pot. When I cash in chips at the cage, or buy an item at a store, I always count my money to make sure that I receive the correct amount.

As far as the ruling is concerned, I'll let what I've said here act as food for thought for everyone else.

[chet]

DCJ:  I have to disagree a bit.  Only Player A, who made the all-in bet AND the Dealer are allowed to stack and physically count Player A's chips.  If Player B were to reach over and start staking another players chips, I would immediately disqualify Player B.  Depending upon a whole host of conditions, it may not be realistic for player B to accurately verify the stacks being created by the Dealer. 

For example, there is a player on the tournament circuit, I have seen him in Las Vegas as well as Tunica, MS, who is blind and requires a "reader" to tell him what his hole and board cards are.  Do you suggest that he be responsible to verify something he cannot see?

I am color blind and it is almost impossible for me to tell some dark blue or purple chips from black.  If, as described in the question, the stacks are dirty and somewhat hidden, and if the dealer doesn't clarify the difference, I have no way of verifying the actual count of Player A's chips. 

These are some of the reasons I submit that the vast majority of the responsibility rests with Player A and the Dealer.  The dealer did not do his/her job and Player A has a responsibility, as both Paul and Stuart have indicated to correct errors or mistakes.  In my opinion, the TD could invoke TDA Rule #41, the 1st sentence of which says, "Players are obligated to protect the other players in the tournament at all times."  I think it entirely within reason for the TD to limit the pot to 51K and to warn/penalize Player A under Rule #41.

Hope this helps!!

[DCJ001]

DCJ:  I have to disagree a bit.  Only Player A, who made the all-in bet AND the Dealer are allowed to stack and physically count Player A's chips.  If Player B were to reach over and start staking another players chips, I would immediately disqualify Player B.  Depending upon a whole host of conditions, it may not be realistic for player B to accurately verify the stacks being created by the Dealer. 

I never said that the calling player should touch the betting player's chips; just that he should be counting along with the dealer as the dealer cuts the chips into stacks. I always assume that someone could make a mistake.

Helpers for players like Hal Lubarsky have a greater responsibility than most people understand. If I were a helper for a visually impaired player, I would be holding myself accountable to ensure that the dealers' actions were correct.