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#51

Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General / Re: Is it a premature river?

Last post by karlovic - May 12, 2024, 07:31:21 AM

What was he going to do, wait for everyone to have acted on the river, and then say something?

In that case, the solution is simple: if another player acts, there's substantial action, making it easier to resolve the issue since the rules state that if there's substantial action, the river stands, and actions proceed as normal.

However, the difficulty here lies in the fact that with UTG not having acted and the two previous actions not involving chips, there's no substantial action, and the river could be considered a premature river.

Although I don't agree with treating it as a premature river, as I feel it gives BB an opportunity to gain an advantage, since they can decide whether to announce the error or not at their convenience.

#52

Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General / Re: Is it a premature river?

Last post by BROOKS - May 12, 2024, 04:53:40 AM

There are always going to be crazy situations that there isn't a clear cut rule for, and we just have to make the best decision we can, with the information that we have.

I wouldn't have ruled that as a premature river.

The fact that the SB didn't say anything once the river came out, AND he acted (checked) on this supposed premature card???
Absolutely not.

Not only did he act, but another player also acted on this card, and a 3rd player was about to.

In Rule 2 - Players Responsibilities, it says Players must defend their right to act. I feel as though this falls under that same way of thinking, you need to defend your action. If he had raised, he needed to speak up. He wasn't even the one that brought it up, it was the BB that said something. What was he going to do, wait for everyone to have acted on the river, and then say something?

#53

2024 POKER TDA SUMMIT XI / Re: what are the hot topics fo...

Last post by BROOKS - May 12, 2024, 04:44:44 AM

Big Blind Ante is def gonna come up again. Need to get a consensus so everyone can just agree to do it the same way.
Whether is Ante first (the right way), or BB first, we just need consistency.
Also discussing whether or not to reduce the size of the BB ante on a Final Table once it becomes shorthanded.

The most common thing people are confused about is raising/calling with prior existing chips. The rules are a bit confusing and are not being applied consistently. They are easily misinterpreted and hopefully can be reworded and explained so that it is straightforward and no chance of being interpreted several ways.

I've also seen several questions about being 'chopped' out of a tournament - which is crazy if you ask me. I am planning on bringing that up and hopefully most people agree that you shouldn't be knocked out of a tournament when you have the best hand.

#54

2024 POKER TDA SUMMIT XI / Re: Registration is now open

Last post by BROOKS - May 12, 2024, 04:44:03 AM

When is the TDA tournament?  Any special room rates available this year?

You can contact Jake Stubing the poker host at the Aria jstubing@aria.com
The reduced rates for the weekdays are decent, but Friday and Saturday are still pretty pricey.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSzzmGoGYeg]

#55

Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General / Is it a premature river?

Last post by karlovic - May 09, 2024, 05:06:11 PM

We have recently encountered a scenario in a tournament that raises some interesting questions regarding rule interpretation.
Case for analysis:

Hand Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSzzmGoGYeg

Final Table Texas Hold'em NL Tournament / 4 players remaining

Blinds 40k/80K/BB Ante 80k

KAWACHY UTG: CALL 80K
ALDO BTN: CALL 80K
KEVIN SB: CALL 80K
JESUS BB: CHECK

FLOP: Kd8h2s

KEVIN SB: CHECK
JESUS BB: CHECK
KAWACHY UTG: CHECK
ALDO BTN: CHECK

TURN: 2d

KEVIN SB: CHECK
JESUS BB: BET 110K
KAWACHY UTG: CALL 110K
ALDO BTN: FOLD
KEVIN SB: PUTS 210K (The Dealer doesn't notice and proceeds to open the River)

RIVER: As

KEVIN SB: CHECK
JESUS BB: CHECK
KAWACHY UTG: He's counting chips to bet

15 seconds after noticing the error...

JESUS BB: Asks, so what did you want to do? Referring to the small, he tells him and tells the dealer, you put two 100k chips.

At that moment the hand is stopped, it is confirmed that SB had put $210k and the Floor is called.

The Floor decides to take the River as a Premature River and returns the actions to the turn, putting the Ace back into the deck and reshuffling before finishing the actions.

KEVIN SB: PUTS 220K
JESUS BB: CALL 210K
KAWACHY UTG: FOLD

RIVER: 7c

KEVIN SB: CHECK
JESUS BB: CHECK

How would you define this case?

Considering that the SB, who inadvertently "made the raise," did not realize the error, could this indicate that the SB had no intention of raising and simply made a mistake in placing the chips?

Is possible that the BB was attempting to gain an advantage by waiting 15 seconds before pointing out the SB's error, Would this be a sufficient argument to keep the river card and not interpret it as a premature river?

#56

Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General / Re: Big Blind Ante - Ante Firs...

Last post by karlovic - May 08, 2024, 10:59:59 PM

In a Big Blind Ante tournament, if a player in the big blind doesn't have enough chips to cover both the big blind and the Ante, the Ante is paid first. This is because the Ante is considered a pre-hand obligation, similar to the traditional Ante that every player used to put in before cards were dealt.

When a player only has enough chips to cover the Ante, it means they can only play for the Ante pot and not for the blind pot. Similarly, if a player only has enough chips to cover the Ante in a Big Blind Ante tournament, they can only play for that value and not for the full blind amount.

#57

Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General / Re: Forward motion of cards or...

Last post by Nick C - May 08, 2024, 10:03:46 PM

Welcome...Ralf009

If I were in charge, the simple solution would be to confront that player before the game begins. You said he has done this on numerous occasions.

WARNING: Next time,  chips moving forward, on your turn to act, can not be retracted.

You might also warn other players to always wait for the action in front of them to be completed before any reaction, including a fold!

#58

2024 POKER TDA SUMMIT XI / what are the hot topics for th...

Last post by JasperToo - May 07, 2024, 06:45:19 PM

What are the hot topics for this year??

#59

2024 POKER TDA SUMMIT XI / Re: Registration is now open

Last post by JasperToo - May 07, 2024, 06:20:09 PM

When is the TDA tournament?  Any special room rates available this year?

#60

Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General / Re: Forward motion of cards or...

Last post by Dave Miller - May 03, 2024, 05:32:18 PM

Ralf -
You could have started a new thread, but whatever.


For the first case, some card rooms have a rule that any chips that cross the line, or go forward past the cards when there is no line, is the bet. I assume you don't have that rule.

Without that rule, I would say that forward motion with chips indicates an intended bet. Bringing all the chips back forces a minimum bet. Not sure what kind of warning or penalty should be given.

Remind the other player, and the rest of the table, "and that's why we don't take action until the prior players action is complete."


For your second case, I would say that "all in? (question)" can be interpreted as "I'm going all in. You gonna call?" It's still a question, and would rule it as an all in. Anything else would be angle shooting or trying to get a read, etc.

I will give a penalty to both players, as well as write up to the Dealer for allowing a pot to be awarded when there was a discrepancy that the floor has not had a chance to take a look at.