Calling a raise before the amount

[Guillaume Gleize]

Hello!

A > bets 10.000
B > says "raise"
C > says "call" (before any amount is announced by B)

1 > Does C must now call any amount announced by B (from 20.000 to many more)?
2 > Or does C can also forfeit a min raise of 20.000 if the amount is too big for him?
(knowing that C will anyway receive a penalty for speaking out of turn). 

TY in advance - GG

[Vincenzo Morabito]

Hello Guillaume!

As the rule says: "If Player A declares "bet" or "raise" and B calls before A's exact bet amount is known, the TD will rule the bet as best fits the situation including possibly obliging B to call any amount."

In my opinion, the possibility of losing any minimum raise could open up scenarios that should be properly regulated by a specific written rule.

I also think that we cannot properly speak of out-of-turn action, since this is a different specific case. There is no action in the declaration of the raise amount, that is, the action is already defined as a raise.

I believe that defending the strength of the verbal declaration is fundamental in a interpreting the spirit and the principles of all the regulation and the written rules as well. So in a very few cases I will fit the situation in a different way to obliging B to call any amount.

[Guillaume Gleize]

Hello Guillaume!

As the rule says: "If Player A declares "bet" or "raise" and B calls before A's exact bet amount is known, the TD will rule the bet as best fits the situation including possibly obliging B to call any amount."

In my opinion, the possibility of losing any minimum raise could open up scenarios that should be properly regulated by a specific written rule.

I also think that we cannot properly speak of out-of-turn action, since this is a different specific case. There is no action in the declaration of the raise amount, that is, the action is already defined as a raise.

I believe that defending the strength of the verbal declaration is fundamental in a interpreting the spirit and the principles of all the regulation and the written rules as well. So in a very few cases I will fit the situation in a different way to obliging B to call any amount.

TY very much for your answer Vincenzo.

To be honest my final conclusion was slightly different from yours because, for the moment, I will usually use the #2 solution and only in very few cases I will fit the situation to choose the #1 obliging B to call any amount. Plus for me C is OOT because the decision of B is NOT over (and so not clear).

But be sure that your answer is IMPORTANT for me, even if slightly opposed to mine. And I will count with it if some other TDs answer me the same way as you.