Out of turn action: under what conditions does skipped player lose right to act?

[MikeB]

At the 2009 Summit, the membership clearly re-ratified TDA rule 29. And it was clarified from the floor that when out-of-turn action is rightfully backed up to a skipped player, if that player changes the action then the out-of-turn actors are released from their declarations. But as of yet, neither the TDA or the WSOP have adopted formal language limiting the number of players that can act out of turn before the skipped player no longer has the option to change the action.

This topic is the subject of a recent forum thread here: http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=145.0

Numerous questions are involved including: 1) Does the TDA want to adopt a formal limit to the number of out-of-turn players before the skipped player (SP) can no longer change the action when it's backed up to him? 2) If yes, then what are the SP's options when action is backed up to him? 3) What are the SPs options when the action is corrected, then precedes around the table and comes fully back to him on his right? Can he raise then or is he still under some limitation(s)? 3) What happens in a board game if the next board card is dealt before this SP has acted? Under what conditions is his hand dead and alternatively, when is the card ruled premature and taken down?

The link above has substantial discussion on the topic.

[chet]

There are several places in the TDA Rules and Robert's Rules of Poker that place a significant amount of responsibility for ensuring the integrity of the game on the players at a table.  I am of the opinion that players are not held accountable all too often.

So, my initial thought is that (unless there are significant extenuating circumstances) if a skipped player doesn't bring the error to the attention of the dealer or TD as soon as the 1st player has acted out of turn, he has lost the right to change the action.  He can only fold or call, he cannot re-raise during that betting round. 

I realize this is pretty harsh and there may be very good reasons this is not workable or "fair", but I think it time for the players to be held accountable. 

In fact, unless the skipped player is 'hiding his hole cards", or they are not visible to the later players acting out of turn, I would be inclined to issue a warning to the entire table, with round penalties for any later instances to the players who have acted out of turn.

Lets see what some others have to say, thanks for bringing this up Mike, good subject.

[Stuart Murray]

Excellent item,

I agree with Chet, Players culpability is not measured enough.  I would like to see 1 player acting but there are situations where that was not the SP's fault, so in fairness 2 players acting after the SP would be reason enough I believe to restrict their available actions.

I like Jan's stance that if it is backed up and the player calls, then another aggressive act occurs the SP's is then released.

With the move away from killing hands at the table, I do not feel that killing the SP's hand if the next board card is dealt is in keeping with the TDA objectives, IMO it should be treated as an premature board card and the SP should be given TDA penalties instead.

Regards
Stuart

[Nick C]

quote author=Nick C link=topic=145.msg907#msg907 date=1273170152]
I want to pass this along to everyone. I have found that the rules used in Las Vegas back in the early 80's (the Las vegas Hilton Rule Book) set the standards for RRoP and any other rules that followed. I will submit this portion exactly as written (only a small portion).

         A 13. ACTION OUT OF TURN

  A player has a right to act on his hand, and an obligation to notify the other players that he has not yet acted when the
  betting action bypasses him. Therefore, the following rules apply when the betting action bypasses a player who has
  not yet acted:

a.) IF SUBSTANTIAL ACTION TAKES PLACE BEHIND A PLAYER WHOSE TURN HAS COME TO ACT AND HAS NOT YET ACTED, THE ACTIONS STAND. THE PLAYER MUST CHECK IF THERE HAS NOT BEEN A BET TO HIM, AND MAY ONLY CALL OR FOLD IF THERE WAS A BET TO HIM. "SUBSTANTIAL ACTION" MEANS EITHER THREE PLAYERS ACTING, OR TWO PLAYERS ACTING BY PUTTING MONEY IN THE POT. THE DEALER COUNTS AS A PERSON IF HE HAS CONDONED THE ACTION, AND IS CONSIDERED HAVING ACTED IF HE HAS DEALT THE BURNCARD OFF THE DECK OR PUSHED THE ACTION PAST THE PROPER PLAYER.

b.) IF SUBSTANTIAL ACTION HAS TAKEN PLACE AFTER A PLAYER WHO HAS NOT YET ACTED, AND THE DEALER DEALS ANY CARDS FOR THE NEXT ROUND, THE PLAYER WHO HAS NOT CALLED ALL BETS HAS A DEAD HAND

        There is more, but I think this covers our topic for today. I have used the LVH POKER RULE BOOK as the bible of poker rules from the first time I saw it.
       
        If some of my decisions don't sound right or outdated, maybe they are because I used the LVH rules forever. For your information Robert Ciaffone (author Roberts Rules of Poker) has done extensive work on rules for the Las Vegas Hilton back in the day.

       I hope this explains why I feel that three people acting after the skipped player is too many to back up the action. Consider the part about the dealer counting as one of the players. That means when Player A bets, and B is skipped, and C calls, it's already substantial action.


        Thought I would share this with you.
Nick C
[/quote]

[Nick C]

I agree with both Chet and Stuart when they say that two people acting after the skipped person is enough. Stuart says that sometimes it is not the fault of the SP. I think an example of that would be if the dealer directs the action to the wrong player. I also agree that if the action has been caught in time, before two players have bet (not three), then the action should be backed-up to the skipped player to do whatever they wish. I also think that the players that acted out of turn (unintentionally) may retract their out of turn bet once the intervening (SP) acts.

ALL OF THESE SITUATIONS ARE UNDER THE ASSUMPTION THAT THE SKIPPED PLAYER WAS PASSED BY EITHER AN ERROR BY THE DEALER, OR A PLAYER THAT DID NOT KNOW THAT HE WAS BETTING OUT OF TURN.

I think everyone agrees that once substantial action takes place and the action returns to the skipped player, he can only fold or call. Now we have to decide how many players is too many.

Stuart, I have to strongly disagree with you when you say that a skipped player (defined as not calling any bets on that round), could create a situation that a new board card be dealt? That is why we have the rule, to stop that from happening. That is why a dealer will "tap and burn" before turning the next card. The dealer is telling the players "here we go" or something to that effect. This is the last chance to speak out if a player were skipped or any other irregularity that may have occurred on that round. If that SP has not responded, or goes unnoticed, how could the hand be live? The hand is DEAD. PERIOD.

If the TDA is looking for a vote on this subject, here's mine; A player that is accidentally skipped should speak-up before two players act after him (TWO PLAYERS) If the player is deliberately hiding his cards he should be disqualified from the game.

That's the way I see it.
Nick C