Rules #12 #13 #65 Italian Field - easy but hard (?l)

[Vincenzo Morabito]

Hello everybody, nice to see all of you again.
Today in a Italian's duscussion social group I have realized how much confusion still have Players and Dealers as well in my country about an easy topic like the showdown and the muck.

I am going to quote (pls translate) the original question and summarizing then:


"Siamo ad uno dei Flight day1 Mini Irish Open da 200€.
In uno spot sono da UTG con una signora che occupa SB, quindi sono in posizione e si arriva a river.
Lei Betta, io chiamo perché ho settato.
La signora annuncia "doppia coppia", mostrando le carte, io annuncio "non basta" e giro set.
Il Dealer prende le carte della signora e le mucka senza guardarle (sul board ci sono 3 carte a colore e due carte non a colore che compongono la doppia della signora).
Un giocatore dice che la signora aveva le due carte a colore e avrebbe vinto lei, altri due lo appoggiano.
Io non ho visto perché ero concentrato sul mio set.
Chiamano il floor che decide di assegnare il piatto alla signora..."sulla fiducia" della testimonianza dei tre, senza mettere mano al muck.
Chiedo di controllare il muck ma floor rifiuta. Essendo io il perdente della situazione, insisto ma a quanto pare la mia opinione non conta.
Floor sostiene di non poter mettere mano al muck perché se non ci fossero le carte a colore della signora sarebbe un problema.
Io il problema onestamente non lo vedo, perché a questo punto poteva anche girare tutto il mazzo delle restanti non distribuite invece del muck e se fosse comparsa una delle due carte a colore che compongono la doppia coppia della signora il piatto sarebbe andato automaticamente a me.

18 anni di poker...questa mi mancava!"

Summarized:
- River Villain shows and declare "two pairs"
- Hero shows 3 of a kind aces
- Dealer muck the villain's card and move the pot to hero
- 4 Players speak up about a mistake coz Villain has Flush, before the new hand stars
- Floor asks players and confirms and gives the pot to Villain
- hero asks to check the muck
- Floor denies the request
- no camera available

In my opinion all is easy to manage. And the Floor has made the right decision for #2 #12 #13

A lot of people are confusing the #65 and muck as a dead hand never showed, totally jumping the dinamic of a 100% correct showdown procedure.

Thank you for your contribute.

[Vincenzo Morabito]

Original question translated:

We are at one of the €200 Flight day1 Mini Irish Opens. In one spot I'm at UTG with a lady who occupies SB, so I'm in position and it comes to the river. She Bets, I call because I have a set. The lady announces "two pair", showing the cards, I announce "not enough" and turn over the set. The Dealer takes the lady's cards and mucks them without looking at them (on the board there are 3 suited cards and two no-suited cards that make up the lady's two pair). One player says that the lady had the flush's cards and she would have won, two others players support him. I didn't see it because I was focused on my set. They call the floor who decides to assign the pot to the lady..."by trust" of the testimony of the three, without putting their hand to the muck. I ask to check the muck but floor refuses. Being the loser of the situation, I insist but apparently my opinion doesn't count. Floor claims he can't put his hand in the muck because if the lady's flush cards weren't there it would be a problem. I honestly don't see the problem, because at this point he could have turned the entire deck of the remaining undistributed cards instead of the muck and if one of the two flush cards that make up the lady's two pair had appeared, the pot would have automatically gone to me. 18 years of poker...I missed this!"

[Nick C]

Without the Lady's cards being properly tabled, there is no way the pot should be awarded to her, in my opinion.

If her hand were properly exposed, face up for all to see, that is a different situation. The rules clearly state that a winning hand can not be killed provided the player is in for all bets and the hand was properly tabled but mistakenly mucked by the dealer.

Did the woman know she had a flush? Aparently not, otherwise she would have announced a flush instead of saying, "Two pair."

The dealer also is not completely at fault. The dealer will assist the players in reading the proper hand, but, the ultimate responsibility is with the player to protect their hand before it hits the muck.

I do agree that you should NEVER go into the muck in poker. Muck cards are dead, and when properly mucked, they are mixed into the muck in such a fashion that it can not be determined who originally possess which cards.

Mucked cards in black jack are stacked in order, so each hand can be examined, but in poker, they are not!

So, if the information you gave was accurate, in my opinion, the mucked hand had to be properly tabled in order to award her the pot.

If the decision were based on players, looking into her hand before she mucked them, without putting them face up on the table.

The pot should have been yours.

I hope I've explained your situation so it can help you in the future.