4way pot and side potters muck

[Steven]

Tristan, are you gonna just sit him out or the other offenders too?!!

[Nick C]

Steven:

I can't speak for Tristan but, I can't see how the other offenders should escape without penalty.

Looking back over the options discussed earlier, I look to K-Lo's post #26. Of the six listed suggestions, I prefer:

3.  Play a hand between players who would have been eligible for the pot had they not folded on the most recent betting round.
4.  Draw a high card between the players in (3), or deal out a hand without betting, or some similar random assignment.
5.  Split the pot between the players in (3), effectively allowing the board to play, and returning chips to the bettors.

I don't like the idea of removing chips from play and, the idea of a carry over to the next hand is okay; however, I like the others better. 

I can see further arguments if we try to give the pot to the last to muck, when they shouldn't have mucked at all.

[K-Lo]

While I think that there are some other valid ways to deal with the problem already stated, I think my answer would be to award the pot to the last player that mucked. 

... But what if you get to the table, and there is disagreement as to who the last person to muck was (dealer is unsure himself), or that the identity of the last player cannot otherwise be determined ...?

[Tristan]

In the first example in this thread, if one player (other than the friend) had agreed with the dealer, I would have still given the pot to the friend of the dealer because he was the last with cards.  If it wasn't clear, I would probably try surveillance, if they were not able to tell I would chop the pot.  I would rather see a portion of the money go to the 'rightful' winner than all of it go to someone who didn't earn it.  I feel that any random solution (draw cards, put in next pot, play off for it, etc) just risks putting the money in the wrong hands and would place the TD in a position of having too much influence on the outcome of the tournament. 

My third option would be to remove the chips from play, as I feel this has less negative impact on the tournament than giving them to someone who did not earn them.

As far as the penalties go...I guess I felt I could give the player who won the pot the tougher penalty because he gained from the foul.  The others didn't gain.  Still, you are correct...they all did commit a foul.  Maybe a warning for the others? 

[WSOPMcGee]

Nick:  I beg to differ with you.  I don't think TDA Rule 11 needs any work at all.  What is needed are dealers who have at least a few working brain cells left.  It is very simple

Hahahahaha while no truer words have been spoken, also what we need are better dealer instructors. Ones who don't just teach people how to pitch and flop.

I know the rule doesn't specifically say this, but is there no common sense left?  Do we need a rule for each and every minute detail?  If dealers and floor people can't use their remaining brain cells, then kick them out and go to electronic tables (Jeez, did I really say that.)

Chet

Hahahahahhaha @ (Jeez, did I really say that.). Trouble is Chet, when you make rules, the rules then get dissected and often need explanation. Some things should be obvious, but sometimes the simplest things escape us.

Chet,
To answer your question I would say: What is the purpose of the rule?  

Nick, that's not an answer to a question... that's another question!!  
The purpose of the rule is simply to prevent chip dumping, collusion and aid the integrity of the tournament by awarding the winning hand the pot in a most expeditious manner. And it makes for good TV too!

[Nick C]

Thomas,

I'm a little surprised that with all I've written on this subject, all you have to comment on is my answering a question with another question.

I've been training dealers for over 30 years and it gets more difficult every time a TD, or new rule, complicates a routine situation. I place more blame on dealers than most, but I feel they should be allowed to do the job they were trained to do. There are TD's that had bad experiences with a few dealers so they don't want the dealers to do much of anything. They take away the dealer's authority necessary to control the action at the table.

There are hundreds of situations that have been discussed on this forum, and I will stick my neck out and say that a good dealer would have prevented 90% from occurring.

Rather than stifle them, let the dealers do the job they were trained to do. An inattentive player mucks his hand (when he shouldn't) and the dealer gets blamed for not protecting the hand from hitting the muck! As far as "working brain cells" I'll put most dealers against players any day of the week.

Thomas, if we are so concerned about the integrity of the game, and no chip dumping, and no collusion, then why not have all players, in for all bets, table their hands at the showdown? That is a question.

[WSOPMcGee]

Thomas,

I'm a little surprised that with all I've written on this subject, all you have to comment on is my answering a question with another question.

I really couldn't help myself. 

I've been training dealers for over 30 years and it gets more difficult every time a TD, or new rule, complicates a routine situation. I place more blame on dealers than most, but I feel they should be allowed to do the job they were trained to do. There are TD's that had bad experiences with a few dealers so they don't want the dealers to do much of anything. They take away the dealer's authority necessary to control the action at the table.

While I agree with your assessment, the problem is that not all dealers have been trained equally. After the poker boom people flocked to get dealer training and there were instructors waiting in the wings to fleece them. Dealers as a commodity in the workplace is over saturated with mediocre to bad workmanship. That's why the TD's have removed some of the dealers authority over controlling the action at the table. Believe me, I'd much rather have a dealer handle a simple premature burn and turn situation than me having to come over and give the dealer step by step instructions on what to do. But so many dealers these days have no clue what to do. Hell... at this years WSOP we had dealers in the box who didn't know what a chip race was. Dealing schools turn out poker dealers like puppy mills. It's very sad, aggravating, and frustrating. I feel very bad for these dealers who come into a situation like WSOP or even just a house job and get told they are the worst dealers ever, repeatedly by players and staff members, when all they are doing is what they were taught by someone. I try and teach them as much as I can in the little time I have with them. As one of the Execs once told me, "We hire the best and train the rest". Which is exactly what we have to do and is why dealers have limited authority over the action at the table.

As far as "working brain cells" I'll put most dealers against players any day of the week.

I think this might be a push. But would be willing to set the opening line at Dealers +110 vs Players -120

Thomas, if we are so concerned about the integrity of the game, and no chip dumping, and no collusion, then why not have all players, in for all bets, table their hands at the showdown? That is a question.

If we did that.... no one would have an opportunity to Slow Roll  [sarcasm]


[/quote]

[Tristan]

Lol, you crack me up Thomas!    Good reads on here today!

Dealing schools turn out poker dealers like puppy mills. It's very sad, aggravating, and frustrating.

So true.  We get people who come to audition in our room, they say they attended a school and then dealt the Series.  After they got out of the box, all I can think is: "Poor use of the word dealt!  I feel sorry for those TDs (and players) in the series that had this 'dealer' on one of their tables."

[Nick C]

Thomas and Tristan,

Why don't you find some good instructors and train the dealers the right way? Management never ceases to amaze, they spend ten's of thousands on auto-shufflers, tables, bravo systems, etc., etc., but they expect the cream of the crop dealers at $4.50 per hour!

If you need help with your dealer's, I'll straighten them out

[Tristan]

Hey, they get $7.25 around these parts!   

In all seriousness, though, we don't generally train them here because we get enough experienced ones auditioning to fill our spots when we have openings.

I'm still waiting for the day when I ask what kind of experience they have, and they tell me they were trained by Nick!   

[Nick C]

$7.25....Holy crap, please mail me an application. 

[K-Lo]

Wow, $7.25.  That is tough.