Should a dealer prevent a pre-mature showdown ?

[NupZ_FTAG]

Hi,
here's the situation:

Only Players A, B & C are in this hand.

Player A bets, Player B goes all-in, and Player C calls the all-in. Now, while Player A is pending to action, Player B shows intention to open his cards to showdown, of course, he forgot about Player A. At this particular instant, the dealer stops Player B stating: please don't open your cards, Player A is still in the game, pending for action.

Question is: How righteous is this? Is it the role of a Dealer to prevent a player to showdown pre-maturely?! 

IMO: it seems to be fair with good sportsmanship; but I also think the dealer's role is to act against players' errors and not assist them not to make them. Errors are meant to be made, those who make them, should be penalized.. a player should be aware about the rules and should pay attention to the game. 

For, from such a mistake by Player B, specially if he had the winning hands, Players A & C would prefer to be still in the pot when Player B shows his hands and thus gets a dead hand; after all, I think that it's Player B who is at fault as he's not paying attention to game flow. Player B should wait for the Dealer to request him for showdown.

This happens quite often; specially when a player has the nuts and tends to get excited to show his cards and win the hand. 

Kindly advise your views.

I thank you in advance,
..NupZ..

[Nick C]

The answer to your question about the dealer stopping player B from exposing his cards is; yes, absolutely. That is one of the responsibilities that a good dealer should practice. Any player at the table also has an obligation to assist the dealer whenever an irregularity is about to occur. The example you give, with player B (the all-in player) makes it more obvious that the action should be stopped by the dealer because players A and C may want to continue betting.
The proper action of a good dealer will have a positive effect on the outcome of the hand in question. The dealer in this case (by stopping player B from prematurely exposing his hand) would prevent player B from breaking too many tournament rulings to even list.

Nick C

[Georg]

I believe the dealer is even required to help players prevent mistakes. You can sometimes see what the player is about to do and stop him before he does it.

Also note, that according to TDA rule the player WILL NOT have a dead hand in this case.

Georg

[Stuart Murray]

I agree, a good dealer should, spotting such error about to be made prevent it from happening in the spirit of the game.  However there are situations where dealers get too involved by stopping players from mucking cards etc.  there is a fine line between when the dealer should prevent things from happening and when they should not.

As georg also pointed out player B would nowadays not have a dead hand, as there has been a considerable move away from killing hands as it is deemed not in the best interests of the overall tournament.

Regards

[Nick C]

Nuptz FTAG

   I think that you are trying to point out that by player B prematurely showing the hand, may induce either players A and C from no further betting, or even discarding their hands. This is an issue for TDA rule #9 FACE UP All cards will be turned face up once a player is all-in and all betting action is complete. I agree when action is heads-up only. When there are multiple players in a hand and a side pot has to be awarded, it is very easy for an all-in player to induce a player to surrender their winning hand for the side pot. At the showdown a dealer should ask to see only the hands that are contesting the side pot first. After the side pot winner is determined and awarded, then the all-in player will show their hand. If the all-in player does not have a winning hand, it can be mucked. For this reason, I think that rule #9 is fine when one player is all-in and there is only one opposing player.
   I also would like to add;  a dealer should protect a player from discarding their possible winning hand (don't let it hit the muck) if misled by the all-in player exposing his "nut" hand prematurely.

Nick C

[Stuart Murray]

Nick,

Whilst you are correct with your interpretation I would point out that under rule 9 which you quoted a player who is all-in and has there bet cannot and should not muck their card at showdown.  The TDA requires all-in called hands to be tabled, even when clearly a loosing hand, which discourages forms of soft play and chip dumping.

Regards

[Nick C]

I don't think the TDA insists that a player that goes all-in (not heads-up) has to show his hand when it's a looser. There are rulings in cash games, that I am more familiar with; any player at the table has a right to see a called hand. I have also seen this ruling taken away in card rooms because it was abused by certain players. When that takes place only the opposing player that was in the hand to the showdown has a right to see the hand. If there is reason to believe that collusion has taken place, then, of course exceptions may be applied by the TD, as with any ruling.

I'm sure that stuamur joins me in requesting a little feed-back.

Nick C

[chet]

Nick:

There are two required parts to TDA Rule 9; a) a player MUST be all-in, and b) ALL betting action for the hand has to be completed.

If there are only 2 players in the hand and one of them has declared "all-in", part 'a' is satisfied.  Since there cannot be anymore betting action, part 'b' is also satisfied and both hand should IMMEDIATELY be turned face up.  If player 'a' tries to muck his/her cards, the dealer should catch those cards and turn them face up until the hand is complete.  Remember "Cards Speak".

If there are MORE than 2 players in the hand and one of them has declared "all-in", then part 'a' is satisfied.  If none of the remaining players has more chips than the 'all-in' player, then part 'b' is again satisfied as there cannot be any more betting action and again all hands should IMMEDIATELY be turned face up.  If any player attempts to muck his/her cards, the dealer should catch those cards and turn them face up.

If there are more than 3 players in the hand, one of whom has declared "all-in", then part 'a' is satisfied.  If at least two of the remaining players have more chips than the 'all-in' player, then part 'b' is NOT SATISFIED.  NO hands should be turned face up as there is still betting action pending for a side pot, etc., etc., etc.

In the example above, ONLY when all betting action has been completed should the dealer instruct those players involved in the side pot to turn their cards face up.  Player 'a' should be told to hold action and leave his/her cards 'face down', until all side pot decisions have been made and side pots awarded.  Then and only then should player 'a' reveal his/her cards, they cannot be mucked and if this player tries to do so, the dealer should prevent those cards from going into the muck.

I believe that it is contrary to the intent of the TDA rule 9 to allow player 'a' to muck his/her cards.

I totally agree with the rest of your post dealing with asking to see a called hand and limiting that right.

Hope this helps!

[Nick C]

Chet,

  I have been teaching poker dealers for thirty years and I would never expect a dealer to turn over a players down cards. The dealer might ask to see them or even call the floor. but for no other reason. I agree with turning the cards face up when there are only two players in a hand and one is all-in. Our differing opinions are on who should turn the cards over.

Thanks for responding.
Nick C

[chet]

Nick:

I guess we can agree to disagree on the point about the dealer turning over the cards.  I would only turn them over if one of the players attempted to deliberately muck them.  As I recall, part of the reason for this rule is to protect the inexperienced player from misreading his/her cards and folding the winning hand.  I think TDA Rules 8 & 10 may also come into play here. 

I would be interesting in hearing what one or more of the 4 "Sages of Wisdom" aka the TDA Board of Directors has to say. 

Keep the thoughts coming, I am enjoying the discourse.

Chet

[MikeB]

Question is: How righteous is this? Is it the role of a Dealer to prevent a player to showdown pre-maturely?!   I thank you in advance,
..NupZ..

In the case you provide I think it's absolutely appropriate. You can look at it like this: 1) On the one hand, the dealer speaking up at a "sensitive" decision time might be somewhat disruptive ... but on the other hand: 2) Providing another player with full knowledge of a player's hand creates a ridiculous advantage for the one player and disadvantage for the other.

Which is the lesser of two evils? By far it's better that the dealer speak up and prevent the card exposure error with all the follow-on ramifications.

To piggy-back on your thoughtful question, my personal opinion is that the fabled RDW / Reinkumuler showdown problem at the EPT could have been avoided if the dealer had simply said to RDW: "Sir we're at showdown and I'll need to see both your cards to read your hand".  This is just personal bias, not a specific rule I can point to, but my bias is towards the dealer (and TD) TAKING CONTROL of the showdown and moving it towards Cards Speak rather than allowing the players to continue to posture after the showdown pot is right.

[NupZ_FTAG]

Thank you all for your replies.
I was expecting to find these updates in my inbox, like a notification.. you know, like facebook..

Thank you again, this has helped see things from a different perspective on the dealer's role.

=>> Now, following discussion trails, i have a question about rule number 9:

2 players are in game, and they both go all in, with the exact same stack... Player A, who went all in 1st, shows down a winning hand. Player B agrees, rookie or not, that he has the loosing hand.

- (i) Can player B muck his cards?

- (ii) If 'no', what happens if he does?


Thank you,
NupZ..

[Stuart Murray]

Nupz,

Under current TDA rule 9 and as discussed above, player B (or A) cannot muck his cards as it is an all-in situation

Regards
Stuart

[NupZ_FTAG]

Thx Stu,

So, sorry to bother, but what happens if he does muck his cards?

Is there a penalty?
Should the dealer table his cards to showdown?
Can another player do that?

Thank you.
NupZ..

[Stuart Murray]

If he does muck his cards it would be a situation for the floor to deal with, I would not be a fan of it but I would try to retrieve his cards if they are easily retrievable.

With regards to dealers turning cards I am not a fan of it, IMO only a player should turn his cards over or the floor where the player has failed to do so, where a player attempts to muck his cards a good dealer should prevent him from doing so however should not turn them over, instead pass them back to the player to turn or call the floor to turn them.

Where I believe a player is simply beat and not aware of rule 9 a speaking to would suffice however where a player is deliberately mucking the loosing hand and fully aware of the requirement to table I would issue a warning (as you can't give a penalty (There already out of the tournament!))

A player cannot table another players cards as this violates the one player to a hand rule.

Best Regards
Stuart