2013 TDA Rules

[chet]

 Nick:

I would think it a better idea to put the thread on comments for Recommended Procedures under the Recommended Procedures thread than under the Rules thread.  It keeps them separate and in my opinion better organized and easier to follow.  I am sure MikeB can move them if you agree.

Chet

[Nick C]

Chet,
That's a better idea. I agree. Thanks.

[Nick C]

Are we going to have any changes to the original TDA rules from this years summit?

[Nick C]

I guess my question from two months ago was missed by the BOD. Will there be a revised, or updated version of the 2011 TDA Rules ?

[MikeB]

Please note that Poker TDA 2011 Rules Version 2.0 are now officially released and may be found at:
http://www.pokertda.com/poker-tda-rules/

This forum thread is just a link to the rules, please discuss same in the appropriate categories.

[TomKarr]

Hey there, i got a question about the rule number 38:
Situation when guy on UTG raises 10€, guy on UTG+2 reraises to 20€,
Third guy goes all-in for 37€, can the original raiser (UTG) reraise or not?

[MikeB]

Hi Tom: I think your question is about Rule 37, (re-opening the betting) if not, please LMK.
UTG makes it $10 total. That was a raise over something I presume, so let's say the SB / BB are 2-4. So BB is 4 and UTG makes it a total of 10 (a raise of 6 over the BB).

The key is that when the bet comes back to UTG, in order for him to re-raise the total bet to him will have to be at least a full legal raise above whatever bet he last made. In this illustration a full legal raise over his last total bet would be 6 more for a total of 16.

In your illustration, UTG+2 raises it to 20 (a raise of 10 over the UTG total bet). Right there the betting is re-opened for the UTG b/c he will be facing a full legal raise. Doesn't really matter what the 3rd guy does.

Ditto if you treat the UTG total bet of 10 as an initial bet... Then a full legal raise is 10 and the UTG+2 raises it by 10 to total of 20, so again re-raising is opened for the UTG, doesn't matter what the all-in does.

In these illustrations, the following wouldn't re-open the betting and the UTG could only call:
UTG raises the 4 BB by 6 for total of 10...  The UTG+2 calls and the 3rd guy goes all-in for a total of 15. 15 is an all-in wager that's not a full raise over the UTG. (we need 6, he only raises by 5).

Second case UTG opens for 10, UTG+2 goes all in for 18, the 3rd guy (not all in) calls the 18.  The UTG needs a total bet of at least 20 (a full legal raise of 10 over his opener of 10) in order to re-raise. The total is only 18 so he can just call the 18.

[K-Lo]

Hey there, i got a question about the rule number 38:
Situation when guy on UTG raises 10€, guy on UTG+2 reraises to 20€,
Third guy goes all-in for 37€, can the original raiser (UTG) reraise or not?

Ditto answer above. Short answer is, UTG+2 made a legal raise over UTG's bet, and therefore UTG has the right to reraise.

A related question that is often asked is whether UTG+2 can raise more than 37 if UTG simply called 37.... and the answer to that is yes he can (as long as you're not in a place like France).  The third guy's all-in is actually more than the minimum raise required to be a "full" legal raise (which is 30, i.e. 20+10);  many players mistakenly believe that any "raise" must be double the previous bet size all the time, but that is not correct -- particularly when it comes to re-raises.

[Nick C]

K-Lo,

I'm sorry but, I'm having a problem trying to follow your raise scenario;  "The third guy's all-in is actually more than the minimum raise required to be a "full" legal raise (which is 30, i.e. 20+10);  many players mistakenly believe that any "raise" must be double the previous bet size all the time, but that is not correct -- particularly when it comes to re-raises."
Can you give a better example?
Thanks

[K-Lo]

Hi nick:

The original example was that A bets 10 (or raises to 10), B raises to 20, and C goes all-in.  How much does C have to be all-in for, such that B can raise again if A just calls?  My point is that it is a common misunderstanding that C has to be all-in for at least 40 (i.e. double the 20) in order to reopen the betting to B if A just calls.  But C's all-in need not be "double" the previous bet to re-open the betting for B - agreed?

[chet]

K-Lo:

Let me see if I can figure this out.  C is facing a total bet of 20 (the original bet of 10 from A and the 10 raise from B).  If C wants to raise, he must double the raise and raise at least 20.  So the total facing C for min raise is 40 is it not?  20 to call from B and a min raise of 20.  It just happens in this case that the numbers work out to a double the previous bet.

Now if A bets 5 and B raises to 20, the raise amount is 15.  Then the min raise amount to C is 30 on top of the 20 from B for a total of 50 is it not?

Chet

[Nick C]

Chet,
No it is not. The raise amount was 15 more so the next min raise is to 35 total.

A bets 5 B raises to 20, the raise amount is 15. the min raise amount is 15 more.

K-Lo,
Your example is also incorrect. Player C must go all-in for at least a total of 30 (not 40), because the raise amount was 10.

[K-Lo]

K-Lo,
Your example is also incorrect. Player C must go all-in for at least a total of 30 (not 40), because the raise amount was 10.

Nick, that is exactly my point.  I was pointing out that it is a common misunderstanding that the all-in must be 40 to be a full raise.  You are correct that it must be 30, because the size of the largest previous legal raise was 10.  I knew you could figure it out.

[Nick C]

K-Lo,

Can you agree with my reply to Chet, or did I not understand his answer, either? There must be a more simplified way to explain a simple raise rule so anyone should understand it. IMO, the TDA raise rules are in need of work.

[TomKarr]

First of all, thanks for all the replyes!
Now, in my club the minimum raise has to be at liest 2x the previous bet (just to keep the game simple and fluent), so the player C did go all-in for less then minimum raise. Why does the rule say: "In no-limit and pot limit, an all-in wager of less than a full raise does not reopen the betting to a player who has already acted"??
Player A has already acted in the betting round (1st raise to 10 from UTG)