Pre flop raise

[michaelgtjr]

Here is the situation, Blinds are at 100 and 200. Under the Gun goes all in for 250. Rule we use states "Any initial bet on the flop, turn or river must be at least the amount of the big blind. All raises must be at least double the previous bet, with the exception of an all-in. Pre-flop, the initial bet is the big blind. Therefore, the minimum raise would be double the big blind, with the exception of an all-in."

I argue the bet is 400 others argue the bet is 250.

Please vote and state your case.

[Nick C]

michaelgtjr,
This one is easy. I will assume that the game is no-limit. The limit, however in this situation is irrelevant. The next player may fold, call the all-in amount of 250, or raise. This is where the big question comes in. What is the minimum raise allowed? We will need to know the limit, and then there could still be debate as to what the minimum raise must be. In a fixed-bet game or a structured game, the raise is not 50% so the next player may call or, he must complete the raise to a total of 400. In no-limit and pot-limit, the rules are too complicated for me to explain.
A simple answer to your question is; 250 required to call, and it is not considered a raise, it is action only.

[DCJ001]

Here's a slide from a TDA presentation from last year, with a similar question, that may help you with this type of question:

http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/9568/tdaallinlessthanfullrai.pdf

[michaelgtjr]

This is a pre-flop no limit situation.

[MikeB]

Hi Michael... See DC's slide. If the BB is 200, then that's the minimum bet (or raise if the bet is 200). In no-limit you can't "complete" an all-in that's less than a full bet or raise because each betting action is considered a complete action. SO... we have an "all-in wager" of 250 and the minimum bet or raise is 200. If you want to raise the all-in, you have to make it at least a full raise (200 in this case), for a total of at least 450.

To recap the action: there's a Full Bet of 200 (the BB), then an all-in wager of 250 (which is 50 over the BB... since it's only 50, it doesn't change the minimum full raise amount of 200), and you are now facing a bet of 250. Since the all-in wager didn't exceed the minimum raise (200), the 200 minimum raise is still in effect. If you want to raise you have to at least raise the minimum (200) on top of the all-in wager to make it a total bet of at least 450. The reason that 400 isn't the answer in a no-limit game is that 400 here represents a "completion" of the all-ins bet, and there's no such concept as completing the bet in no-limit poker. hope this helps, thanks alot for an important illustration!

[Stuart Murray]

ditto mikeB's response,

plahyers may call 250 total or raise to at least 450 total

regards
stuart

[chet]

I don't think the poll is complete.  It only gives 250 and 400 as the choices.  According to MikeB's post, the next bet would have to be 450.  That should be included in the choices, should it not?

[Nick C]

To all,

I think some of the confusion, is because of the way the questions are written. The way michaelgtjr describes the situation, IMO I think he is looking for the amount necessary for the minimum raise. If my assumption is correct, neither answer is acceptable. Correct me if I'm wrong. In order to call, a player can only put the amount of the all-in (250). I think michael is looking for the required amount to establish a minimum raise.
          Options to the next player (UTG+1) include #1 FOLD  #2 CALL (250) #3 RAISE......I think the question is which amount will total the minimum raise?
                       400 or 450
The correct answer has been clearly defined by DCJ001's example, and Mike and Stuart have also confirmed the answer. Chet, I'm with you, the poll only adds to the confusion.

[Oddvark]

I think the question is: with blinds at 100/200, after UTG goes all-in for 250, what is the minimum amount that any other player must pay to stay in the pot -- i.e., can they just call the 250 or are they required to "call" the amount of a full raise of 400? 

The rationale for requiring 400 would be similar to the situation where blinds are 200/400 and the BB is all-in for 250 (less than the amount of the big blind).  In that situation, if any player wanted to stay in the pot, they would be required to call the full 400, even though the player in the BB had only posted 250.  One could argue that since we require players to call for the full amount of the blind even when a player posts less then the full blind when all-in, we should require players to call for the full amount of a minimum raise even when a player wagers less than a minimum raise amount when all-in.

I think everyone who has responded on this thread -- myself included -- would not follow the above reasoning but believe that players may call the 250 wager and are not required to "call" 400.

I also wanted to note that no one who responded addressed the house rules that the original poster specified: "All raises must be at least double the previous bet, with the exception of an all-in. Pre-flop, the initial bet is the big blind. Therefore, the minimum raise would be double the big blind, with the exception of an all-in."

The OP seems to be taking the position that the rules specify that the minimum raise pre-flop would be double the big blind = 400, and since UTG wagered an amount more than the big blind it was a raise, which by definition was required to be 400, so everyone else must thereafter call 400.  Not only is this interpretation not the generally accepted one, but the house rules themselves specifically include an exception to the "minimum raise must be double" rule in the case of an all-in -- i.e., the rules allow a pre-flop "raise" of less than double the BB when a player is all-in, so the 250 wager would be an acceptable "raise" under the house rules.

The house rules quoted are also somewhat confusing to me.  When they say that "all raises must be at least double the previous bet" is that really what they mean?  I think they mean that "all raises must be at least equal to the previous bet" (which is different than the normal rules that require all raises to be at least equal to the previous raise).  Otherwise, read literally, with blinds at 100/200, the min raise would be to 600 -- a call of 200 plus a raise of at least 2x200.

[Nick C]

Oddvark,
My first reply states that the 250 all-in is not considered a raise, it is action only. I think we have an understanding of the rules for a required bet when a player goes all-in for less than the BB, pre-flop. That is not the question. Players and floor persons need to figure out a way to make the raise situation less complicated. Fixed bet games (structured) are very easy to understand. Once a post comes in regarding no-limit, this is what happens every time.
In the original question, the all-in player wagered 250 (50 more than the BB). The full minimum raise in a no-limit game would be 200 more, totalling 450, not the 400 you suggested. If it were a limit game, then you would be correct.

[Oddvark]

Nick, I was responding to what the original poster asked.  Maybe I misinterpreted it, but I don't think I did.  Hopefully, michaelgtr can clarify his question.

Also, please try to read my response.  I never once suggested that a full raise on top of the 250 wager would be 400.  I suggested that the minimum non-all-in raise that the UTG could have made would have been 400 (had he not been all-in for less).  And I even agreed that the next player could just call the 250.

Moreover, according to the rules that the original poster specified (not necessarily the rules that you play by or the generally accepted rules), the minimum raise that the next player could make would be at least to 500.  His rules state that "all raises must be double the previous bet".  This is different than the standard rule that "all raises must be at least equal to the previous raise."  The previous bet in this case was 250, which means that the next raise would have to be up to 500 (assuming the intent of the rule was that the total wager amount of a raise must be double the previous bet, not the literal reading that the raise itself would have to be double the previous bet).  Just to make sure I am clear, I am not saying that in a "normal" no-limit game the next min raise would be to 500 -- I agree that normally it would be to 450 -- but under the rules presented for michaelgtr's game, the next minimum raise would be to 500.  (But I also don't think that michaelgtr was asking about the next min raise.)

[Nick C]

Oddvark,
I am not trying to disagree with you. I am having a tough time understanding exactly what we are looking for. There has to be more clarity whenever we discuss bets and raises. A 200 bet that is increased to 250 by an all-in player is action only and should not be defined as a 250 bet. In many years as a dealer, I would have to stop the action to be certain that I understood the intentions of some bettors.
Example: No-limit, blinds 100/200, Pre-flop UTG says, "Raise 400." At times, I would have to wait to see how much he actually put into the betting area, to be sure what his intentions were. It could easily be construed as either a 200 raise (total 400), or a raise of 400 (totaling 600).
I hope I'm not getting too far off the subject but, unclear bets will always cause headaches if we can't clarify bets from raises. I guess I'm looking for a question that needs to be more specific.
Oddvark, it's obvious that I could have misunderstood the question, too.

[michaelgtjr]

This is a no limit game. Blinds are at 100/200. UTG raised to 250 for his all in pre-flop. Total bet made by UTG is 250. My understanding is that all other players must still call 400. Is everyone else saying that the call is 250?

[Nick C]

Yes. Think of it this way, if the all in player went all-in for 205 pre-flop, should that force others to make a full raise? If the all-in were 150 (pre-flop) with blinds of 100/200, then the other players would have to call the 200 (BB). If the all-in were facing only one other player, then (of course) only a call would be required. I hope this helps clarify the answer for you. Another point of interest, the example that you gave (no-limit), applies to all limits. No-limit,  fixed limit, spread limit, pot limit and mixed limit. Players are obligated to call the all-in only (with options to raise), they are not required to complete any raise. This is for all poker games, even tournaments.

The question of how much a player may raise, is a different story. The standards and amounts for minimal and maximum raises will change, based on the limit being played. However, calling the all-in player is the same.

[michaelgtjr]

I disagree that it's in tournements as well. I believe I saw a WPT event where after loseing a big pot someone had just the big blind or just over it and was delt rockets and won the hand. Everyone else at the table had to complete the bet. I'll try to find confirmation.