Breaking Tables

[Nick C]

Seating Players: Breaking and Balancing Tables

TDA Rule #5
Players going from a broken table to fill in seats assume the rights and responsibilities of the position. They can get the big blind, the small blind, or the button. The only place they cannot get a hand is between the small blind and the button.

I thought that the addition of a few short words, would make the rule easier to understand. My suggestion is:

The only place they cannot get a hand is...A VACATED SEAT... between the small blind and the button.

If I understand the rule ,I think this addition makes it more clear. I'd like to know how others feel about this change. Is it necessary?;

Happy New Year.

[chet]

Nick:  I guess I don't really understand why you think those words are necessary.  If there isn't a "vacated" or empty seat between the button and the small blind, how can a player be moved to such a position?  I guess I would like to hear more from you as to why you think those words are necessary. 

I will grant you it makes it 'clearer', but even with my poor eyesight (kept me out of the military), I understand that you cannot move a player into a seat that isn't vacant, so I think the rule is adequate as is.

Chet

[Nick C]

Chet, 
Your words:
"I will grant you it makes it 'clearer"   I rest my case.

[chet]

OK, but I really don't think those additional words are 'necessary' to the rule.  I guess it is kind of like adding Whip Creme to Pumpkin Pie.  It doesn't make the Pie any better, but it does add something.............yum yum!!

[Stuart Murray]

I get what Nick is trying to achieve from this, where there is a gap between the button and sb and a table breaks, meaning players fill this gap (or at least I think thats what Nick means!)

say for example 3 tables remaining with 19 players (9 headed) SB busts on table 1 in seat 4 whilst the button is at seat 7, so table 3 is broken and seat 4, 5 and 6 are filled, but the button is now at seat 4 leaving seat 5 & 6 between the button and SB in what were vacated seats during the last hand, the rule specifies that you can't skip the button onto seat 6 to bring everyone into the new hand.

I'm not sure 'vacated seat' is the correct phrasing, tba i'm struggling to think of how to clean it up though.

Stu

[Nick C]

Stuart,
Would unoccupied be more to your liking? Or, empty, or seat of recently eliminated player, etc. etc. The point is,one of these additions could make the rule simple to understand.

[WSOPMcGee]

The only place they cannot get a hand is between the small blind and the button.

How about this Nick,

The only place a player(s) from a broken table cannot receive hand is if their new seat assignment is between the small blind and the button. Sound better?

[Nick C]

Thomas,
I've been around poker for a long time and all I can tell you is, I was confused the first time I saw that rule. I get it now, but making others understand that there could be an empty seat between the button and the small blind is all I was trying to convey.

[D.C.]

I guess Tomas' solution got closer to waht really is the approapriate phrasing.

My 2 cents:

The only place a player(s) from a broken table cannot receive hand is if their new seat assignment is an ampty seat between the small blind and the button on the next hand after that player arrives at the new table. The moved player should wait until that hand is played out and the button is moved to the seat at his left.

[Skylight]

Hello, to give my 2 cents too 

The only place they cannot get a hand is between the small blind and the button.

How about this Nick,

The only place a player(s) from a broken table cannot receive hand is if their new seat assignment is between the small blind and the button. Sound better?

Question : who, what, where, when, how this occurs ?
who ? the new arriving player (that is moved),
what?  checking each position,
where? on the new table (prepare for the next deal),
when? whenever arriving at a new table, after the end of the running deal,
how? places and position are checked before the next deal.

So il would present this phrasing :
Players going from a broken table to fill in seats assume the rights and responsibilities of the position. They can get the big blind, the small blind, or the button.
On arrival to the new table, places and position are checked before the next deal. After the end of the running deal on the new table, checking applies for all new arriving players (those are moved), players can take their seat.
The only place a player(s) from a broken table cannot receive hand is if their new seat assignment is between the small blind and the button at this checkpoint. If happens, the player can seat, but play only at the next deal.

it is quite clear  ?

[Spence]

I'm pretty sure this thread removed what little clarity the rule had...

[JasperToo]

I'm pretty sure this thread removed what little clarity the rule had...

You're making me laugh....

[Pepper_W]

Ok Folks, forgive me for complicating this issue, but I had this come up the other night.  We were playing 3 tables of 8 players winding down a tournament.  On one table, a player took out 3 players in one hand, leaving us with 8, 8 and 5.  Players who had been eliminated earlier had moved chairs away from the tables leaving only 8 chairs.  When I broke down Table 3 they moved chairs back to the table, but there were no vacated seats at the table. 

One player moved his chair into the BB position.  When he realized he was sitting in the BB was after the deal had begun.  He wanted to sit out until the button passed him.  My ruling was that he moved his chair into the BB position and had to play the BB.  I also told him he couldn't make a seat move because he had already been dealt into the current hand.  He wasn't happy about it, but he went along with the program. 

My point is that if we put too fine a point on the rule and refer to a vacated seat, in situations like our smaller games being played in a large club, there may not actually be a vacant seat, or any seat at all.  I always refer to the table positions in my case, each one marked with a cup holder.  Players seem to understand that when we need to make room at the table.  I realize this doesn't happen in the larger casino tournaments, but it does happen in the smaller casinos I've played.

I'd like feedback on my comments, but I'd also like to know if other TD's agree with the decision I made.  IMO That was the only ruling I could make, were there others I may have missed?

[Nick C]

Pepper W:

IMO, Your decision was fine, under those circumstances. Next time, make sure that your dealers NEVER allow Any chairs to be removed when a player vacates a seat. That's it!
This is not a cash game. Tournaments have strict rules for seating. Do not allow any moving of chairs. Problem solved.

[JasperToo]

I am with Nick, you did fine.  And never let the players move the chairs out until the final table..

Another thing that can help is to use seat cards (or chips) and have the players keep them until eliminated (or moved to a new table with a new seat card).  That way, even if they do happen to scrunch up or remove seats they will know what their 'position' is supposed to be so that when you move a player back to the that table everybody can move back to their proper positions.