Cheaters

[chet]

The following link points to an article on PokerNews.com discussing whether individuals who have alleged to cheat should be allowed to play in subsequent events.

http://www.pokernews.com/news/2011/05/fool-me-once-should-alleged-cheaters-be-allowed-to-play-10411.htm

It brings up an very interesting point of view and I would like to see the subject discussed at this years TDA Summit.  I think it is very likely too complicated for a definite solution to be adopted in only a couple days, but I think it is important enough to deserve some discussion time.  As is often said, the Rules are not there to 'punish the offenders', but to 'protect the players'.  Is there anything more important than protecting the player from known cheaters,  I can't think of anything.

I am of the opinion that until we get, if ever, a governing body there will be little consistency.  However, I think it would be very valuable for the TDA to issue an "advisory" opinion.  May be that would be enough for a serious discussion by TD's, Casino Managers and the like.  Nevada has the Gaming Commission "Black Book" and there is the Griffin Agency, but I don't think either has much to say regarding poker cheaters.  

I understand there is a liability question, especially if the person has never had their "day in court", but there should be something the industry can do to protect the players.  Maybe it could be addressed in the contract between the sponsoring house and the tournament.

[Nick C]

Chet,
I think it is a great idea. Maybe a section of the Discussion Forum could be added as the Advisery Central for known poker cheaters. I'm sure it would be a lot more involved than just putting their names on a list. I'll bet there are some lawyers out there that would jump at the chance to sue a major casino for defamation of character or some other legal issue. That's probably why it hasn't happened yet. Bad reputations of players will have a way of catching up with them....so until we find another way, we will probably have to wait for the cheating players to take their just "lumps" like they did in the movie Rounders. A simple phone call between friendly poker rooms could be enough. After all, we do have the right to refuse anyone from playing in our cardroom...right?
Adding a warning before the event is another way to get the message out, that cheating in any form, will not be tolerated and will involve expulsion from the cardroom permanently.
Let's not carry this "bad guy" image too far. I mean, poker players have not been at the top of the squeaky clean characters list...ever. We don't want to lose half of our players, do we? Criminal record? That's okay. Dead beat dad? That's okay. DWI? That's okay, too.....just NO CARD CHEATERS!

[chet]

After all, we do have the right to refuse anyone from playing in our cardroom...right?

Nick:  Nevada has laws on the books that basically say that Casino's can refuse admittance to any person for any reason the casino deems applicable.  In other words, they can keep you out "just because".  I seem to remember an issue came up some time back in New Jersey where they wanted to do the same thing and under New Jersey law (at least at that time) they could not.  I believe New Jersey said that Casino's were "public places" and persons could only be excluded for "just cause".  The Casino having to prove the "just cause". 

I am sure there are some 'creative minds' with legal experience that could come up with a solution, unfortunately, I don't think there is a "one size fits all" answer to this difficult problem. 

I believe the casinos, to some extent, have brought this upon themselves and us in that they NEVER seem to want to file complaints which result in arrest, etc., the legal process is expensive and what do they have to gain?  There is no monetary loss to the casino so what is the incentive? 

Maybe we need to go back to the "old days" when they took you out of town and had you dig three holes, one for you and the others in case anyone else happened by.   

[Linda Johnson]

Chet,
I definitely think we should have this as a topic of discussion at this year's Summit!
Linda Johnson

[Pepper_W]

IMO, cheating at poker is the lowest form of theft, especially if it involves collusion.  While my games are small in the overall scheme of the game, I have the largest payouts in my local area.  Consequently, we sometimes draw players who are interested in bringing a less than honest game to the table.  Since our games are held in a club, I have the added protection through an agreement with the club owners.  If a player is removed from our game they are also removed from the club.  I don't think Casinos would have a problem with this.  Since I know all the local game owners, if someone is caught cheating or suspected of cheating, I simply pick up the phone, or I get a call.  At that point the player isn't allowed in any of the local games.

The above concept can be reproduced through a National Association of some kind which players have to join to be eligible to play in tournaments.  If a player is caught cheating, simply revoke their membership.   Entry into a game could be refused based on their not having an active membership without even touching the subject of cheating.  

My group does this unofficially, but there is a rather large members only poker league in Austin that does this officially.  If a TD catches a player cheating their membership is revoked and they can't play at any of the league locations.  This concept could be implemented nationwide.    

Then there is the school of thought that we should brand a letter "C" on their forehead, but I don't think that one would last long enough to be effective more than once.

[chet]

Pepper W: 

While your thoughts and ideas are noble, I don't think they are practical.  Most casinos don't give a damn.  Why, because casino money is not involved with wins or losses.  As opposed to a house banked game like blackjack or craps, they just don't have any incentive, other than reputation, for enforcing honesty among poker players. 

As to a nationwide association, that might work in those area in which club games or private games are legal.  Unfortunately, in a large part of the US, such games are not legal.  If I remember correctly Texas is included in that group.  What do you suggest for bar or pub games?  Where I live the ONLY legal poker is in the Native American casinos.  There are hundreds of small events held in bars and clubs but these are "underground".  Within the last month one of the largest events which allowed cash games after the tourney was done was heisted.  Everyone knows who did it, but because of the gang implications and the fact that these are underground, no complaints are filed.  So who is going to do the enforcing?  Also, since the alleged thief is a black man, all he has to do is cry racist if you try to keep him out and then the &*( will really hit the fan.

I don't know what the solution is, maybe there isn't one, maybe if on-line poker gets legalized in the US?

[Pepper_W]

Yea, it was just a thought.  In an area where poker isn't fully condoned its going to be difficult to bring any organized oversight to the games. 

I'd prefer to stay away from discussing location specific issues.  Those aren't really associated with the overall rules of the game.

Thanks for the comments.