The Summit

[Nick C]

The folowing are some of my thoughts after the summit. I sent this to the board after going over some of the rules that were discussed. I did get a response from the board of directors, but these issues can be discussed further after the new rules are adopted.

Thanks for your response. I agree with all that you have stated except the part about the dealer turning over the all-in player's hand. If the player is seated, why don't they turn it themselves? If they are not at the table, doesn't that go against TDA rules? Would you leave the table with live cards while still in contention for the pot? I guess (for tournaments only), the cards of an all-in player could be turned by the dealer after attention is brought to the floor. At that time, after being instructed by the floor to reveal the all-in hand, the dealer must turn over the hand. Proper wording is important but I could live with a rulling like that. I appreciate your time and the expertise that you bring to the TDA. The WSOP is a tournament that most floor persons and casinos will never experience. The numbers are staggering, and it is an amazing accomplishment to oversee such an event. The point I am trying to make is, the TDA must set a fundamental standard for poker on a worldwide scale. I am not in favor of adopting rules from the WPT or the WSOP, or any other tournament that most of us will never experience.

IMO, the TDA should avoid payout structures, and even seating. Moving players is okay but telling casino management that they must use 10 handed tables when their tournament only plays with 9, is a good way to loose the support of casinos that have 9 cameras already built in to their tables. There must be some wording that can make special allowances for these rooms. I know that chopping is here to stay but, I also know that management should avoid getting involved when it comes to verbal agreements between players. I personally think the TDA should stay as far away from this subject as possible. I could go on but, I'm writing a book. My point is; let the TDA set the standard and let the other major events incorporate the TDA rules into their house rules. Why should we (the TDA), create new rules, or ammend any existing rule (like WSOP #91), when we know it will only cause problems. On a lighter note, how can "pass" not be recognized as a legal word for poker?

Nick C

[Dave_The_Maori]

The folowing are some of my thoughts after the summit. I sent this to the board after going over some of the rules that were discussed. I did get a response from the board of directors, but these issues can be discussed further after the new rules are adopted.

Thanks for your response. I agree with all that you have stated except the part about the dealer turning over the all-in player's hand. If the player is seated, why don't they turn it themselves? If they are not at the table, doesn't that go against TDA rules? Would you leave the table with live cards while still in contention for the pot? I guess (for tournaments only), the cards of an all-in player could be turned by the dealer after attention is brought to the floor. At that time, after being instructed by the floor to reveal the all-in hand, the dealer must turn over the hand. Proper wording is important but I could live with a rulling like that. I appreciate your time and the expertise that you bring to the TDA. The WSOP is a tournament that most floor persons and casinos will never experience. The numbers are staggering, and it is an ammazing accomplishment to oversee such an event. The point I am trying to make is, the TDA must set a fundamental standard for poker on a worldwide scale. I am not in favor of adopting rules from the WPT or the WSOP, or any other tournament that most of us will never experience.

IMO, the TDA should avoid payout structures, and even seating. Moving players is okay but telling casino management that they must use 10 handed tables when their tournament only plays with 9, is a good way to loose the support of casinos that have 9 cameras already built in to their tables. There must be some wording that can make special allowances for these rooms. I know that chopping is here to stay but, I also know that management should avoid getting involved when it comes to verbal agreements between players. I personally think the TDA should stay as far away from this subject as possible. I could go on but, I'm writing a book. My point is; let the TDA set the standard and let the other major events incorporate the TDA rules into their house rules. Why should we (the TDA), create new rules, or ammend any existing rule (like WSOP #91), when we know it will only cause problems. On a lighter note, how can "pass" not be recognized as a legal word for poker?

Nick C

I agree with everything you have said and like you, I can live with anything the TDA puts out. I agree with all except the recognition of "Pass". My reasoning is that in some non-english speaking countries, like here in New Zealand, "Pass" is translated to mean "Forfeit" or "Fold". To me, the word "Pass" is similar to the word "No" on the poker table meaning it all depends on the question asked, yet the word "No" is not an official term for poker. I understand the jest that's involved with this word, I just wanted to share my two cents.

[Nick C]

In response to words, and what they mean, what are your feelings about other actions and  gestures? Like tapping the table when the action is checked to you. Or rapping your knuckles or fingers on the table. That too should be included, correct? It isn't english, but it's universal.

There was quite a bit of time spent discussing the word "pass" at the Summit. Too much time, IMO. I'm sorry I opened my mouth when we were asked if anyone had a word that should be added to the list. I know I'm older than most but, surely some of us remember games like jack's or better? In that game, when the action was on a player they would either  "open" or "pass." In this situation the indication was that the player was still in the hand if another player opened the pot. They were not "out." If a player passed with a bet in front of them, the dealer would take their cards and kill the hand because they were out! So we have pass/check or pass/fold.

I can live with the omission but, some of us have to understand that poker is more than texas hold'em and Omaha.

[Nick C]

While we're on the subject of accepted words for poker, what about: "I'm in" or "I'm out?"

[JasperToo]

Or how about "Go Ahead" or just as often "Goat Head", or just plain "Go".  I like what they are trying to do with the rule and I really hope that the language that ends up being use "and any regional terms" (or something like that) makes it clear that terms that are used in a particular venue or by a particular group of players will be understood to as binding action.  I suppose this will cause a moment or too of "what did you mean" but I think after that a dealer or player would then be able to accept the term as binding if used subsequently. 

Otherwise we are stuck creating a lexicon of just a few words (which may not be all bad) or creating a lexicon of a bunch of words, which if it is anything like the English dictionary, would grow and grow and grow. 

[barts185]

I think that we should start another thread for the subject

Acceptable words, phrases and gestures, but am replying to this here to keep it together until someone decides it's worth starting another thread.


My suggestion would be to create a lexicon of as few words / phrases / gestures as possible along with a statement to the effect that anything other than this specific list will be subject to the interpretation of the floor person.

This way, there is a defined list, and if a player chooses to use something other than what's on the list, they have been warned that anything else is subject to interpretation.

Rooms are always free to add additional words / phrases / gestures as house rules.