plo dead money

[diz475]

We have a few people debating this subject so I need some opinions.
Pot limit Omaha a player buys the button lets say it 2-5 so 2 dollar dead small in the middle.
The Question is the 2 dead dollars count if someone pots it.  Is it 15 or 17 or in the case of places that let you assume the small as a full bet is it 20

Some are saying its dead money and does not count as part of the pot.

while on the subject how many places assume the small as a full bet, 2-5 so first bet can be 20 if so would you do this in a 5-10 game so its 40 not 35

[Nick C]

diz475,

I would say yes to rounding it up. The important issue is giving the players what they prefer and be consistant.

[K-Lo]

diz475,

I would say yes to rounding it up. The important issue is giving the players what they prefer and be consistant.

I would agree as well (but would defer to the expertise of the cash game experts).

[chet]

IMHO:

Since when is "dead money" not part of the pot.  Using that reasoning, do you then pull that amount out and put it in the drop, since the winning hand is only eligible for the money "in the pot".  It makes no sense to me to exclude that money from the pot as all you are accomplishing is total confusion as to what constitutes a "pot bet".

Chet

[JasperToo]

Cheers to chet..

[Nick C]

 My first response was in reference to diz475's question about making the first pre-flop raise 3.5 times the BB or 4 times.

I'm not sure about the dead money in pot limit. Somehow I don't think it would qualify as part of the pot for the purpose of raising, even though it is...well, part of the pot

[Spence]

Nick is right when he says

The important issue is giving the players what they prefer and be consistent.

But aside from that we counted the small as a full bet($5 for your purpose in a 2-5 game) but did not count dead money as part of the pot. The consensus that we got from our players is that the dead money could not be a full bet as it was not live and therefore not raiseable. So we treated it as just $2 in the pot. Then the pot betting got really confusing for the players and the dealers as we were no longer consistent in the $5 increments that simplified the game. Eventually we put a rule in place saying that dead money would not be counted towards a pot bet.

[chet]

Spence, not wanting to be disagreeable in spite of whatever Nick thinks  , the reasoning behind your solution doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

You say you want to keep the "pot" in $5 increments, but what do you do if the SB folds?  Does that $2 count as part of the "pot"? It certainly isn't a "full bet".  I can understand the solution, but I just can't understand why you count "this $2, but not that $2".  I am not a PLO expert, but it seems to me from my Hold'em experience that having an odd $2 because the SB folds occurs much more often than having an odd $2 because of dead money, regardless of the reason (Buy the Button, Player returns from absence and has to post missed blinds, etc.)

Chet

[JasperToo]

I suppose in a cash game at any particular venue you have to make your customers happy but Spence, that argument over the "dead money" makes no sense to me.  When there is a full table and nobody has missed a blind and the appropriate players post the big and small blinds that money becomes the ENTIRE pot at that moment.  It is no longer the players money but the POT's money.  So why would it make a difference at all to how the pot is raised (whatever rounding rule you might use) if the some of the money is in front of a particular player or not?  I just don't see any difference in this situation.  The money can come from a single player or two players but there is still $7 in the pot and a pot size raise should be a $30 bet for the first player.

* just so I am clear diz475, an opening bet of $20 in this situation is fine but a pot size raise would actually be $30 as the rounded amount of the pot is $10 to start, the call would be $10 for a total of $20 so the raise would be $20 for a total of $30 for the raiser and $40 in the pot.*

[Nick C]

Jasper,
I think you'd better recalculate your bet.

[diz475]

i think jasper is refering to the 5-10

i think the question must came from a rule that spence is referring to. do you count the small as a full bet even after it is folded

what we do is round the small blind up preflop untill it is folded and then it counts as two dollers in the pot from then on,
i have always counted dead (posted small blinds) as 2 dollers in the pot preflop.

someothers said it is not right dead money should not count as part of the pot, thats why i wanted your opinions

[JasperToo]

Yeah, I blew it.  I was using $10 to call rather than just $5 to call and then the raise.   So the max bet in the 2-5 example (with the 2 being rounded to 5) would be $30 - $5 call $15 pot size raise. 

The point, of course, is that the $2 "dead money" counts as part o the pot regardless of where it came from

[Nick C]

Jasper,

I'll correct you just one more time. the total would be $20 and not $30. I know what you meant.

I spoke with a dealer in Florida and he confirmed what you said about the dead $2 counting as part of the pot, so I guess it depends on the jurisdiction, or the house policy for the game. I know of a couple house games where dead money only counted after the flop! I guess the important issue is consistency and approval from the players.

This leads me to another scenario, although I don't know of a PLO with an ante. Would you alter the max raise pre-flop to include the ante as part of the pot for the purpose of the max raise? I've never heard of it.

[JasperToo]

good lord, I am having a helluva time with math this week!!! thanks nick....

Yes, if you use antes then that money would be part of the pot and should figure into the size of the max raise.  You don't normally see antes with PLO though...

[Brian Vickers]

It would be the same amount as if no one bought the button, IMO.  So if you round (which you absolutley should) then it's $20.  3x$15+$2Rounded to $20 either way.