Pot Limit Omaha: how to speed up calculations

[Luca P.]

hi folks,
I would like to run a PL Omaha tourney.
Problem is the slowness on counting the pot and subsequent pot raises.
We all know it's pot + bet + call, but do you know any faster methods?

[K-Lo]

Hi Luca:

You might want to look at this earlier thread... we discussed some shortcuts for determining pot-sized raises in PLO  http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=613.0
In general, I think that {Total wager=3x bet faced + remaining wagers behind bet faced + pot} works in most situations.

K

[Tristan]

{Total wager=3x bet faced + remaining wagers behind bet faced + pot} works in most situations.

This.  There really is no easy way other than this.  All dealers will be rough until they get used to it. 

[Luca P.]

Hello folks, I'm sorry to dig up an old thread, need another clarification on PLO
We are in a cashgame hand, PLO 1$-2$ / 5-handed

SB posts 1$
BB posts 2$
UTG puts straddle 4$
CutOff folds
BTN Folds
SB raise pot 14 up to 15 (right? 2+4+4+4 plus his SB posted)
BB calls 13 up to 15 (13+his BB posted)
UTG raise pot 60 up to 64 (right? pot(30+his straddle 4)+15+15)

[/color]

My question is: if we have a player who has already acted with a bet/call/raise, his bet/call/raise come into play when calculating the pot raise for him?

[Nick C]

LucaP,

My answer is yes to what you have calculated. I added a little twist with the raise amounts. For some reason, in PL we rarely mention these amounts.
This is the formula that I introduced 3 years ago:

I want to add the following FORMULA that should be used to determine the maximum allowable bet for pot-limit. Any player facing a bet, may raise 3 times the largest bet required for a call, plus the remaining trail, plus the pot. Example: Pot size 100, Player A bets 50, Player B goes all-in for 20, Player C wants to raise "pot."
Answer: Three times 50+20+100=270.
 Formula works for any player when it is their turn to act, even the under the gun position pre-flop. Example: Blinds $5 and $10. UTG bets "pot." Three times the Big Blind plus the Small Blind. Three times $10+$5=$35. PLEASE NOTE: The small blind is sometimes counted as a completed bet to the Big Blind, this will allow the "pot bet" to increase to $40.

SB $1 BB $2 UTG straddles to $4 amount. To calculate a pot size raise by the SB: three times $4 = $12 + 1+$2 =$15 ($11 raise)
BB calls $13 more at this point...SB has $15...BB has $15...UTG has $4 facing a $15 bet. If we follow the formula: three times $15 = $45 + $15 +$4...The $15 and the $4 are the "string" of bets remaining.
So the total amount (pot size bet) to the UTG straddler would be $64...A $49 raise!

[Luca P.]

Ok ok nice then, thank you!
Yeah I usually train my dealers to both of the two formulas, sometimes they are faster with one, and sometimes with the other one!

[Brian Vickers]

Luca, do you use Bravo Clock for your tournaments?  If so, what I have done is precalculated the pot size opening bet for every blind level and put that under the "bring-in" field.  This way the dealer can look up and know that if it's 150-300 blinds, an opening pot size bet is 1050.  If there are limpers first, just add the limpers bets into the calculation: three players limp in for 300 each, add 900 to the 1050, etc.  Found that it's helped in tournaments when the blinds are odd increments (like 75-150, 1500-3000, etc.)

Also, 7x the SB might be easier than 3.5x the BB for some.

[Luca P.]

Luca, do you use Bravo Clock for your tournaments?  If so, what I have done is precalculated the pot size opening bet for every blind level and put that under the "bring-in" field.  This way the dealer can look up and know that if it's 150-300 blinds, an opening pot size bet is 1050.  If there are limpers first, just add the limpers bets into the calculation: three players limp in for 300 each, add 900 to the 1050, etc.  Found that it's helped in tournaments when the blinds are odd increments (like 75-150, 1500-3000, etc.)

Also, 7x the SB might be easier than 3.5x the BB for some.

Brian thank you for the hint!
unfortunately we don't use Bravo system, but I'll try a workaround for my clock!

[Alessandro 'Maverick' Galietta]

Right or wrong?

1. HU blinds 200/400 - sb (button) raise pot 1200
2. HU blinds 200/400 - sb (button) raise pot 1400
3. Blinds 200/400 - all fold - sb raise pot 1200
4. Blinds 200/400 - all fold - sb raise pot 1400
5. Blinds 200/400 - utg call - sb raise pot 1600
6. Blinds 200/400 - utg call - sb raise pot 1800
7. Blinds 200/400 - utg call and sb call - bb raise pot 1600
8. Blinds 200/400 - utg call and sb call - bb raise pot 2000

RWRWRW

[Nick C]

"Maverick"

That is a good question...or questions. The situations you've described are no different than a player already in for earlier bets on current street, facing a raise? The question is: Do we follow the existing rule...three times the bet we are facing, plus the additional string, plus the pot...or do we subtract the amount we have already pushed?

I would lean in the direction of keeping the formula intact, even though there may be arguments against it. Consider the cardrooms that allow the first UTG pre-flop to raise 4X the BB under the assumption that the SB has called the big. We can also consider the allowable "pot" size raise when the BB is all-in for less than the required bet, it is treated as though his BB were complete.

Based on what I've mentioned, I would:
1. HU blinds 200/400 - sb (button) raise pot 1200  X No
2. HU blinds 200/400 - sb (button) raise pot 1400 Y Yes
3. Blinds 200/400 - all fold - sb raise pot 1200 X No
4. Blinds 200/400 - all fold - sb raise pot 1400   Y Yes
5. Blinds 200/400 - utg call - sb raise pot 1600  X No
6. Blinds 200/400 - utg call - sb raise pot 1800 Y Yes; UTG adds 400 to the string, so 3 X 400 + 400 BB +200 SB =1800
7. Blinds 200/400 - utg call and sb call - bb raise pot 1600 X No
8. Blinds 200/400 - utg call and sb call - bb raise pot 2000 Y Yes  All three players are in for 400, so the "pot" would be 3X 400 + the remaining string of 800=2000

[Brian Vickers]

Right or wrong?

1. HU blinds 200/400 - sb (button) raise pot 1200 - Correct.  Using the "hard way" calculation, button puts in his 400 which makes the total pot size 800.  He now raises 800 more for a total bet of 1200
2. HU blinds 200/400 - sb (button) raise pot 1400 Incorect, the 3x the bet + the rest of the pot equation won't quite work the same way here .  The "3x +" rule gets you to your "total bet" but to do that you have to retract previously wagered chips first.  SB takes his 200 back into his stack.  Bet is 3x400+0 = 1200.  Alternatively, if you bring in the first "matched" 200 into the pot, now SB is facing a bet of 200.  3x 200=600 + the 400 sitting in the pot.  SB puts out 1000 more than his 200.. he has wagered 1200 total.
3. Blinds 200/400 - all fold - sb raise pot 1200 Correct, this is the same as the heads up scenario
4. Blinds 200/400 - all fold - sb raise pot 1400 Incorrect, see above.
5. Blinds 200/400 - utg call - sb raise pot 1600 Correct
6. Blinds 200/400 - utg call - sb raise pot 1800 Incorrect
7. Blinds 200/400 - utg call and sb call - bb raise pot 1600 Correct.  The first 400s are all part of the pot as they are matched.  BB's raise is 3x the bet he is facing (3x0) + the pot of 1200.  His raise is 1200 more, 1600 total bet
8. Blinds 200/400 - utg call and sb call - bb raise pot 2000 Incorrect

RWRWRW

It's important to remember that the "equation" is a shortcut for the "long way" of calculating pot size.  The long way is to match the bet you are facing, now take everything that has been wagered and raise that much more.  Blinds 200-400 UTG says "pot."  You can do 3x400+200 to get 1400 TOTAL bet or you can put the 400 in, now raise 1000 more (400 from utg, 400 from bb, 200 from sb) for a TOTAL bet of 1400.

[Brian Vickers]

"Maverick"

That is a good question...or questions. The situations you've described are no different that a player already in for earlier bets on current street, facing a raise? The question is: Do we follow the existing rule...three times the bet we are facing, plus the additional string, plus the pot...or do we subtract the amount we have already pushed?

I would lean in the direction of keeping the formula intact, even though there may be arguments against it. Consider the cardrooms that allow the first UTG pre-flop to raise 4X the BB under the assumption that the SB has called the big. We can also consider the allowable "pot" size raise when the BB is all-in for less than the required bet, it is treated as though his BB were complete.

Based on what I've mentioned, I would:
1. HU blinds 200/400 - sb (button) raise pot 1200  X No
2. HU blinds 200/400 - sb (button) raise pot 1400 Y Yes
3. Blinds 200/400 - all fold - sb raise pot 1200 X No
4. Blinds 200/400 - all fold - sb raise pot 1400   Y Yes
5. Blinds 200/400 - utg call - sb raise pot 1600  X No
6. Blinds 200/400 - utg call - sb raise pot 1800 Y Yes; UTG adds 400 to the string, so 3 X 400 + 400 BB +200 SB =1800
7. Blinds 200/400 - utg call and sb call - bb raise pot 1600 X No
8. Blinds 200/400 - utg call and sb call - bb raise pot 2000 Y Yes  All three players are in for 400, so the "pot" would be 3X 400 + the remaining string of 800=2000

I'm sorry Nick, but I believe that each of these answers is incorrect.

[Nick C]

I'm glad you disagree...now we can (possibly) resolve this issue.

[Nick C]

Come on TD's...over 5900 views on PLO and nobody from the board can help us out? Are there any Professional Players that can chime in?

Does the potential "raiser's" "pot bet" include his partial blind as part of the "string" or not? The current formula would have to be altered if that is what we decide.

[Luca P.]

I proceed with logic:
we are assuming that, to caculate the pot raise, we must sum the pot (all the chips behind you) and 2x last biggest bet/raise.
Once you make an aggressive action or a call, your chips belong to the pot, don't they?
So on 200/400, I'm assuming that 200 and 400 are bets that no longer belong to the players, making the pot 600, so to raise I must add additional 2x400, making it 1400...