min raise preflop in front of short all-in?

[Luca P.]

here is another situation:
Blinds are 600-1200
Player A moves all-in for 1900
how much is the min raise here?

[Stuart Murray]

1,200+700+1,200=3,100 is the total minimum 2-bet

[Luca P.]

1,200+700+1,200=3,100 is the total minimum 2-bet

thank you!
can you also tell me where did you take the rule from?

[Luca P.]

I'm trying to find a solution because there's no written rule about this...
in RROP there's a different situation: it's about min.bet, not min.raise
some tds says that it should be 2400 because the all-in wager is not a full raise so it's treated as a call

[Stuart Murray]

Hope this helps!

So many people are easily confused by this, and it's not really a surprise to me, the rules are quite difficult to get your head round, but here goes;  To understand what were discussing we must first goto the actual wording of the rule then I can help you interpret them correctly:

TDA RULES:
37:   Raises  A raise must be at least the size of the largest previous bet or raise of the current betting round.  If a player puts in a raise of 50% or more of the previous bet but less than the minimum raise, he must make a full raise. The raise will be exactly the minimum raise allowed (see exception for multiple same-denomination chips, Rule 39). In no-limit & pot limit, an all-in wager of less than a full raise does not reopen the betting to a player who has already acted
FIDPA RULES:
60-4.An "all-in" bet of less than a full raise does not reopen the betting to a player who has already acted.
ROBERT'S RULES OF POKER RULES:
14-NL-3 All raises must be equal to or greater than the size of the previous bet or raise on that betting round, except for an all-in wager. Example: Player A bets 100 and player B raises to 200. Player C wishing to raise must raise at least 100 more, making the total bet at least 300. A player who has already acted and is not facing a fullsize wager may not subsequently raise an all-in bet that is less than the minimum bet or less than the full size of the last bet or raise. (The half-the-size rule for reopening the betting is for limit poker only.)

So what they are all saying on the subject of a player not putting enought chips in when all-in to be classed as a full raise is "An "all-in" bet of less than a full raise does not reopen the betting to a player who has already acted." But what exactly does this all mean?  Two concepts habe to be understood "Action Changing" and "Action Only," what is Action Changing? a bring-in, complete, full bet or a full raise, which changes the amount to play by a legal amount in the betting round. What is Action Only?  A Check, Fold, Pass, Call or an All-In Raise which is not 200% of the previous bet or raise (In No Limit & Pot Limit).  lets look at some real live scenarios first:

No Limit Hold'Em Blinds 200/400
Player A moves all-in for 650 total, what are following players options?
Players can either a) fold, b) call the 650 or c) raise, a further 400 to 1050 but why these amounts??
The all-in from player A is Action Only, but has still changed the amount to play to 650, most will readily accept that following players can call the 650, but many don't understand the raise option.  The amount to play has increased to 650 so following players wishing to raise can do so with a full raise + amount to play so in this example 400 (BB) + 250 (All-in) + a full raise (400) = 1,050 total.

now that is the easy part, this is where action changing and action only come into play:

NLHE Cash Game Blinds £5/£10

Player 1 Calls £10 (Action Only)
Player 2 Raises to £20 (Action Changing by £10)
Player 3 Raises All-In to £24 (Action Only to £24)
All other players including blinds fold back to 1
1 Can a) fold b) call £14 more to £24 or c) raise a minimum of £10 to £34 (£10 + £10 + £4 + £10 = £34)
But why can player 1 raise again? It says above "An "all-in" bet of less than a full raise does not reopen the betting to a player who has already acted" - But his action has been changed by player 2 by raising to £20 so discounting the £24 all-in of player 3, action has been changed by player 2 to player 1's call.  Now where does this rule apply though?  If player 1 calls the £24 bet, then it applies as player 2 can only call the £4 more or fold as his action has not been changed by anyone, but if player 1 raised, say to £45 then player 2 can do what he wants yet again as the action has once more been changed

So with all that in mind let's look at another example from another recent poker tournament:

NLHE Blinds 2000/4000/a500
Player 1 Limps for 4,000 (Action Only)
Player 2 Folds (Action Only)
Player 3 Shoves for 7,500 (Action Only)
Folded to Blinds
SB Folds
BB Calls 3,500 more (action only)
Player 1 wants to raise - but he can't as the action has not changed, he can only fold or call the additional 3,500

What about when the BB is all-in for less than the BB amount?
Lets say blinds are 2000/4000/a500, BB has 4000 at the start of the hand, so he has 500 for his ante and 3,500 for his BB, players have to call the BB amount not what the player has, so players who wish to call have to call 4,000.  That ones pretty straightforward!

So remember anytime someone raises all-in short you must still include that in the total to play but if raising must make it at least a full bet on top of the total required

[Nick C]

Stuart,
I know you understand the raise rules better than 99% of the TD's everywhere but, somehow I'm sure all of your examples are still not easy to understand...and that's the problem.

How can we expect player's to understand a rule that the floor needs 10 minutes to explain? That of course, only applies to floorperson's that understand the rule themselves.

We really need to change the language that is currently written, instead of trying to explain the same rule over and over.

In any game, excluding limit poker, an all-in player's wager must constitute a valid amount, (100% of the previous bet) to re-open a raise to any player already in for all bets on that round.

If we take a look back, you will find many discussions from long ago on this subject. Those interested in taking a look back should look to raise rule #31 before the 2011 Summit.

[Tristan]

First step is figuring out what the amount of a minimum raise is.  The lowest this amount can be is the big blind amount.  The only thing that will change that amount is a raise by a player that is larger than the big blind amount, in the same betting round. 

Once you establish what the minimum amount of a raise would be, add that number to the bet the player is faced with.

In the case of your example, the amount of a min raise is 1,200.

The bet the player is faced with is 1,900.

1,200+1,900=3,100