Reopening the betting

[Nick C]

Mike,
After reading all of the related prior posts you listed. I tried to respond to the following that you wrote:
Here's a recent illustration request:
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Hi [name withheld]: In your example:

SB (300)  BB (600) Player A raises TO 1500 total (a raise of 900) B re-raises TO 4500 total (a raise of 3000) C folds
D makes an all in wager of 5000 TOTAL (an increase of 500). SB & BB fold.

Question: Can A re-raise or only call the 5000 total (A must put in another 3500 to call) because D is all-in and A has already acted.

Answer: A can re-raise because the amount to call (3500) is MORE than a minimum full raise to A.

Why?: On this betting round, the initial bet to A was 600 (the BB), A raised it by 900 to 1500 total.
That means that to re-open the betting to A, there must be a full raise back to A (at least 900 more).
In this case there is much more than 900 for A to call... there is 3500 more for A to call.
So, A can re-raise in this case.

The only way A would be limited to only a call is if the TOTAL BET back to A was less than 600 + 900 + 900 = less than 2400.

Thanks for the question!

Mike: I think your example needs another answer. The total min re-raise to Player A is a total bet of 8500...correct?

[MikeB]

Mike: I think your example needs another answer. The total min re-raise to Player A is a total bet of 8500...correct?

Looks like a minimum raise to 8000 total: D's 5000 all-in wager plus the largest bet or raise of the current round which is B''s raise of 3000.... 5000 total to call + 3000 min raise = 8000 total to A to min raise here. A's already in for 1500 of that (so 6500 more to min raise to 8000 total).

[Nick C]

Mike,

Holy crap! You're right but I had to read it 10 times to figure it out! Okay, SB (300) BB (600) Player A raise (900) to total (1500) Player B raises (3000) to total (4500) Player C folds and Player D goes all-in for (5000) a short all-in of (500) more. I don't know why I missed the short all-in.

Can we go further? I don't know what happened to the SB and the BB but if Player B wanted to raise again, the min raise would be another (3000) on top of the (8000) for a total of (11000)...right?

Thanks Mike, I hope I got it right this time but, I don't see how this example is going to help clear up our raise rules. Which also leads to the fear that I have about the upcoming summit. That is: Too much time is going to be spent on Accepted Action, when the time could be spent on our raise rules and others that need attention.


I'm still scratching my head over this one : "The only way A would be limited to only a call is if the TOTAL BET back to A was less than 600 + 900 + 900 = less than 2400."

[MikeB]

I'm still scratching my head over this one : "The only way A would be limited to only a call is if the TOTAL BET back to A was less than 600 + 900 + 900 = less than 2400."

No prob, that's what these illustrations are for.

Rule 37: "....In no-limit and pot limit, an all-in wager of less than a full raise does not reopen the betting to a player who has already acted..."

In the example, a minimum full raise back to A is 600 + 900 + 900 = 2400.... anything less than that will not re-open the bet for him.

[Nick C]

Mike,

Help me out on this one...I quoted your last sentence and you responded with...NO

The line that you printed in red, is the issue that we've had with the rule since day 1.

We have established the fact that; a player that checked (in turn) can raise if a valid bet is made by another player behind him.

I'm sure I'm not the only one that is getting more confused with your example. If A opens for 600 and B raises to 1500 (900 more), Player A will be able to raise no matter how many players call or go all-in for any amount.

[Tristan]

I believe Mike's statement in red was meant as a blanket statement for all situations.

You are correct, Nick, in this situation Player A was raised by Player B so no matter what C does, we know that A has the option to raise when it gets back to them.

[MikeB]

Mike,

Help me out on this one...I quoted your last sentence and you responded with...NO

I responded with "no problem"

The line that you printed in red, is the issue that we've had with the rule since day 1. We have established the fact that; a player that checked (in turn) can raise if a valid bet is made by another player behind him.

I'm sure I'm not the only one that is getting more confused with your example. If A opens for 600 and B raises to 1500 (900 more), Player A will be able to raise no matter how many players call or go all-in for any amount.

How is it confusing? I'm answering the original poster with as thorough an answer as possible to their specific example. Part of that thorough answer is that the bet back to Player A must be AT LEAST 2400 in order for the action to be re-opened. That is equally as correct as your statement that "a player can raise if a full valid bet is made behind him".  I'm just providing the AMOUNT of that full valid bet in this case: 2400 total to Player A.

The key for these illustrations is that there is more than one way to look at every situation. As long as the way you look at it gets you to the correct conclusion, that's what matters. You can look at the total bet, or the amount of the raise... it leads to the same conclusion.

[Nick C]

Mike, I'm sorry but I don't get it. What is 600+900+900=2400? Do you mean 600 bet and 2 raises of 900 each? If that is the case Player A would need to call 1800.

Perhaps if we didn't use raise in relation to an all-in wager. e.g. No short all-in wager will re-open betting or raising to any player in for all bets.

I don't know why they don't consider an all-in (over the bet amount) a raise but it's considered action only and that's the way it is. I would prefer a short all-in or a short all-in raise. I guess I can't change them all.

[Tristan]

Re-read the example at the top of the thread Nick.

Blinds are 300 and 600.  Player A raised 900 to 1500.  B raised after that.

In the question of:  Can player A raise?  Mike said that it would have to be 600 (big blind) + (900 raise by A) plus at least another 900 (2400 total) when it got back to player A in order for them to raise.

[Nick C]

Sorry guys...I'll come back to this another day

[Nick C]

Okay, I'm back.

Let's take the same scenario and break it down so even I can understand where we're going.

No limit (six players) Blinds 300/600...UTG (Player A) raises 900 for a total bet of 1500. At this point the min raise is another 900...Player B raises 900 for a total bet of 2400. Player C folds, Player D folds, and the SB and BB also fold...

Back to Player A...his options are: Fold, Call 900 more, or raise at least another 900. The only exception would be if he were in an all-in situation with less than the call amount (900), or less than the required amount to re-raise (1800 more).

Now I'd like to change it up a bit, for anyone, other than myself, that is having problems with some examples that are correct but too short to cover everything.
Same scenario: Player A raises the 600 BB 900 more (total bet 1500), Player B Calls 1500...Player C goes all-in for 1600 (a short action only wager), Player D folds, as do the blinds...

Back to Player A...He may fold or call 100 more...that's it! He can not re- raise Player C because his "action only" short all-in is not a valid amount (minimum raise amount of 900 more) to re-open any betting.

I guess my confusion comes from the abbreviated example given.  I understand the raise rules but I sometimes have a difficult time interpreting what we are trying to say with our short (but not simplified) version.

Mike, thanks for being tolerant. All I can say is the students that I train, new to poker, need more than we sometimes give.

[MikeB]

The amounts and rationales in your two examples are correct. In the first example, Player A can re-open, in the second, A can only call because he's already acted and there's not been at least a full minimum raise back to him.

This thread is linked to the "master" raising, re=opening thread here:
http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=823.0

For someone who really wants to explore these betting and raising rules, I don't know of any better resource than to just patiently go through each of the posts on that thread.

[mooredog]

In the first example Nick posted the min raise after B made it 4500 is 3000 to a total of 7500. My question to Mike is why can't A raise to 7500 after D's all in to 5000? Is it because completion of the raise is only a limit hold'em concept?

[Tristan]

In the first example Nick posted the min raise after B made it 4500 is 3000 to a total of 7500. My question to Mike is why can't A raise to 7500 after D's all in to 5000? Is it because completion of the raise is only a limit hold'em concept?

A min raise amount is figured by determining how much is the total bet, and then the amount of a min raise on top of that.  The total bet is 5000 to Player A, and the minimum raise is 3000.  That means 8000 is the amount of a minimum raise.

Completing a bet is only in limit poker.

[Nick C]

Tristan,

Most of us know what the min raise is but for those that don't quite get it yet, your example adds to confusion. Telling a player his min raise is based on the total bet is misleading. let's start with any raise in no limit; it must be at least the size of the bet (in any form of poker), however the player that will be facing a bet after a raise must only consider the size of the raise, not the total. e.g. Player A bets 300, Player B calls Player C raises 300 more (total 600), Player D raises 400 more (total 1000). If Player E wants to raise his min raise will be 400 more (total 1400), because the biggest raise was 400. It has nothing to do with the 1000 bet Player E was facing.

In the original scenario (that I also messed-up): when the all-in player's wager was only 500 more than the previous raise, it was not enough to qualify for a raise, it was action only, but must still be calculated into the total wager for the purpose of calling... bet 1500, raise 3000 more (total 4500), the all-in action takes the total to 5000.
The largest raise was 3000 so the next min raise must be 3000.